Alan's Comment - I think this new group of people has worked hard to discern where God is leading them.  I believe that this process will lead the group to a NEW or at least a reNEWed vision in the Boundary Area.  As such, I think we need a new name to reflect the new vision.  And, I think that new name should echo from the old but be representative of the new.  I would suggest the name "The King's Table".  The "King" to remind us of our roots and "Table" because a table is where a family gathers, a table is where people are fed, the Lord's Table is celebrated here, and inviting someone to join at a table is a symbol of welcoming and meeting our neighbor's basic needs of sustenance and community.

Kathie's Comment - I would prefer we keep it as it gives honour where honour is due, namely our King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus.  If the consensus is to change our name I would prefer a name that honours our God rather than where we live. I would like us to keep our focus on God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  thanks for the opportunity to input.

Aaron and Sybil's Comments - We feel strongly that if we are to fold both groups and form a new one, The name King of Kings has to be folded with that entity and a new name chosen for the new community. There are several reasons and others may have different opinions and reasons. Likewise, the group we call refugees or ex-patriots will also drop their agenda and name, if you will, and become part of the new community. As far as a name for the potential new community, there are people who have mentioned some names that I felt were quite good. The only one I have thought of is "Kingdom Church" and you might make the connection when I send you the document I am working on.

Church Name Ideas - Len & Jean - Here's tonight's brain-storming for church names:

• Heart of God Christian Fellowship
• River of God
• Grace Notes Community Church
• Byways Fellowship
• Crowsnest Fellowship
• Living Stones Fellowship
• Desert Spring Community Church
• God's Aggregate Works - (Our God Rocks)
• Springs in the Desert Christian Fellowship

Jane's Ideas - Living Stones" came to my mind yesterday as well but since "our God rocks" we could go for Rolling Stones (if it is not copyrighted) for fun and good conversation entrances.... (Rolling does sound alive and moving in a certain direction, downhill, and aren't the mountains made level as a highway for our Lord in Isaiah.)

Also I thought that since God is our refuge and our strength and a shelter in the time of storm therefore "The Refuge" or "The Shelter" are suitable.

Mark's Comments:  My ideas so far . . .

1.  Christ our King Community Church

I love this one because it is declaratory.  It states very simply where our loyalties and love lie.

2.  Tapainos Community Church

This transliteration could be spelt differently (Tapanos?).  It is from Philippians 2:3 and 8 and means "humbled".  Christ humbled himself unto death (vs 8).  We are called to humble ourselves in our relations with others (vs 3).  It could also be then a reference to Micah 6:8, "He has shown you, O man, what is good.  And what does the Lord require of you?  To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."  Having a name that no one knows provides a great opportunity for us to explain and share our heart.

Fred's Ideas:  Thanks for the stimulus Len and Jean. Here's some additional thoughts.

Kathie's Comments about a new name:

First of all I want to apologize to anyone if my attitude caused offense on Sunday.

I am not totally opposed to a new name for the church but I do find myself (to my surprise – God has truly been using these discussions to reveal to me what is in my heart that I didn’t know was there!) that I am attached to the name King of Kings. To me it means safety and shelter (thanks to Rick and Martin) – a safe place to grow in the Lord Jesus. I have found much healing here – healing of old wounds caused by harsh use of authority. It is so much easier to learn and to grow under leadership that shelters and encourages and teaches and when correction is necessary that does it gently and lovingly. If I haven’t said it before – Thank you Rick and Martin!

(I include these thoughts and concerns so that you could perhaps understand where I am coming from a little more – I have scars from my past that sometimes rear up from the past and affect me now) So I have some fear that if the name is changed the shelter and encouragement and safety might change too. I have some fear that perhaps I will again have to suffer under harsh authority. In my head I know that a name change does not change the character of our pastors but my heart reaction is to be concerned. Will we loose the freedom to worship God as He leads with voice and body –sitting or standing or dance or kneeling or being prostrate? Will those of us who enjoy that freedom of expression be denied that freedom? Will the joy and passion that our hearts experience at encountering our loving God be denied expression? Will our hearts be crushed with rules upon rules heaped up and burying us? So many old wounds yelling out of the past. I need to not let fear have its way. I need to put my trust in our God that He will faithfully lead us and protect us. I praise You almighty God, God of wonders and power and mercy and love.

I also need to trust all of your hearts those beautiful loving and much loved by God hearts.

I do have all kinds of questions.

If we already have a church in town that uses the word community in the title – should we too? mightn’t it cause offense? or confusion?

Do we ask God for a name that reflects the calling He has for us? What is that calling?

Should it reflect unity with diversity?

Should our name reflect who we worship? how we worship?

Do we want to attract young people and so have worship styles that attract them? that speak to them? If so, should our name reflect that?

Do we want to emphasize prayer? a call to personal holiness? If so, should our name reflect that?

Do we want a fairly widely applicable name so that if God’s emphasis for this season of our lives changes we don’t have to change our name again?

Do we want a name to reflect our desire for revival? for healing? for knowing the love of God? for evangelism? for helps?

Do we want a name that reflects our past connections or do we want a completely new name?

It seems that there are so many things to consider in choosing a name. the big question I have is:

What would God call us? What does God call us?

Scripture says He calls us by name – so what is that name? It seems to be a fairly common thing in scripture that when God meets with an individual He changes their name.

Abram to Abraham, Simon to Peter, Saul to Paul, etc

And those names have meaning that is reflected in their lives and their futures.

What is the name God has chosen for us?

Should we then be seeking God for our name specifically?

Do we then pray for a “meeting” with God to receive our name?

You see – lots and lots of questions! What do you think?

Mark's Response:

Just read Kathie’s post – THANK YOU! This is exactly what we need to be hearing – what people’s fears/concerns are. Good questions too.

Elaine's Comment:  

Hi Everyone,

I like the name King of Kings. If we change the name would we be keeping the name King of Kings New Testament Church as the legal entity for Revenue Canada purposes and Victoria? If we change the legal name we may have to have the land title changed as well as application to Revenue Canada for a new Charity number.

Rick's Response:

Hi Everyone

There is provision for legally changing a society's name. It will just be red tape and probably some fees. Land owned by the charity would also need to be changed, but I think the charity number is the same. Still researching it.

www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/chrts/prtng/chngs/nm-eng.html

Rick

Dave's Comment:

Hi everyone,

I don't think we need to legally change the name. I know the organization I work for changed their name a couple of years back to OneBook, but our legal name is GPL. I have seen the term 'GPL operating as OneBook' come up so perhaps that needs to be registered somehow. Something to look into.

As for a new name, I liked a suggestion from Alan "King's Table" or perhaps "King's Table Community Church", it is combines elements from both groups. And we are all coming around a table together under the King (Jesus).

Len's Comments:

Hi All,

Here is my 2bits....

"King of Kings" is a great name and it fits the theological paradigm that Aaron articulated. I have hesitations about the addendum, "New Testament Church". On three points:

1. That term, "n.t.c.", can be interpreted as following all the specific practices and commands found between Acts and Jude. Here are examples:

• Women must keep silent in the church.
• Women must wear a head covering while praying...and seeing as we should be praying continually they should be wearing a head covering all their life.
• We should sell our assets and hold all things in common.
• We should quit our jobs and devote ourselves to the apostles teaching, prayer, and the breaking of bread.
• Women should wear no jewelry, make-up, or bright coloured clothes
• etc

2. The term, 'ntc', leaves the impression that the first century church was perfect and is our ideal and model. Paul's epistles show that it was not perfect.

3. Unfortunately, we live in the 21st century and our culture and the issues are at least partly different (all though there is nothing new under the sun). Is it inconceivable that the Holy Spirit might work in a new way-as Joel says, 'young women will prophesy' (behold, I am doing a new thing, can you not perceive it)?

My gut feeling is that the 'ntc' is history that we need to learn from but not necessarily copy. (I might be wrong on this.) I would therefore agree with Dave that the word "King (Jesus)" is important and to be non-denominational the word "Community" is also important. I like the imagery of the 'table' as it unifies us around the work and person of Christ.

On a different note, I expect that `King of Kings New Testament Church`` will continue to be an entity even if we start a new work apart from it. Should not `KOKNTC` still exist for the holding of the property and for continuation of the school--separate/apart from whatever the new work is? This means that the financial assets and associated liabilities of KOK remains with KOK...and the new work would need to negotiate the rent or lease of suitable space.

I still strongly feel, that God would like us to worship together.

Blessings,

Len.

Jane's Idea:

Hi All: "Christ Community Church" also speaks to both the One who is our head and that He wants us to be community. Jane

From Mark:

Hi Everyone,

I like what Kathie said to me: that “community” should not be in the name as an act of respect to BCC....as much as I like the word....as much as I very much like the word.

Also, I agree, I think new Testament church needs to be changed from a theological perspective – I want to be part of a 21st century church that is vibrantly and intentionally living out the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ for today.

“King of Kings” is fine theologically – though I think from a “this is a fresh start” perspective changing the name would be good – we want to look forward and not backward.

Thanks,
Mark

Wendy's Comment:

I think it's important to change the name of the church. We are a new entity & God is doing a new thing with us & will be doing a new thing through us. I love The King's Table as I feel like I'm having a spiritual feast during worship sometimes - being filled to all the fullness of God. and I am looking forward to what else he is going to do! also like Streams in the Dessert, or Rivers. I looked up that scripture in five different versions - 4 of them said "rivers in the dessert". Sorry I forget exactly where in Isa. it was - 53?

Jean's Comments:

Hi All,

Thanks Kathy for both of your posts...I appreciated talking with you about these things several times in the last week...but felt that they were yours to share with the group.

I wonder if a bit of clarification needs to take place....a looking back to how this process started 6 months ago. Rick stated last Sunday that this was a 'friendly takeover'...although it may feel like this because we meet together in your church building under the banner "King of Kings New Testament Church"....the process actually started by a desire to express thankfulness, give blessing, and bid farewell as the ex-pats continued their journey to begin a new work. During this meeting, leadership from KOKNTC expressed a desire to explore such an endeavor also. Out of several meetings that looked at the proposed direction for our journey--the 'process' that we have been engaging in began. It is still a process of exploration who's end may find us worshipping together regularly or taking differing paths but still able to come together periodically for corporate worship.

I agree with Kathy that we all have fears, concerns, experiences from our past that cause us to want to run back to what we have experienced as 'secure, safe, healing'...these fears will continue to raise their heads until the moment when we are reunited with our Saviour. They are part of our lived experience but I liked how you ended that part Kathy...saying that when you are afraid you intentionally choose to turn your eyes to Him who is able to give sure refuge.

I appreciate the rich diversity of experiences and backgrounds that we can all bring to this body of Christ. "We take a long and loving look at what we see right before our eyes in our chosen or assigned or last-chance congregation. And then, persisting in what we see, internalizing in our prayers as church takes form in worship and baptism and Eucharist, we give witness to what we gradually but very surely know the church is in the only terms in which the Holy Spirit forms it--on this earth, this ground, this local 'Midway' with these local and named saints and sinners." "...not the lie of a humanly managed popular provider of religious goods and services but a congregation of embarrassingly ordinary people in and through who God chooses to be present to the world." (pg 28, Practice Resurrection by Eugene Peterson) I have much to learn from all of you...not to say that I will agree 100% with it all but I feel that God is able to help all of us to grow as we comfort, sharpen, love, and suffer/rejoice alongside one another.

I too wish to ask forgiveness if my sharp comments on Sunday caused offense. I want to speak to all that is on the discussion table not just those things that are easy...we want to address concerns and issues honestly...but I realize that my presentation can be harsh...please forgive me.

I too feel that if we will choose to journey together at the end of our explorations...we need to be totally new (name and maybe location). Our 'muscle memory' jumps too easily back to the old form (that brought comfort, healing, feelings of safety) instead of trusting in God and the Spirit's new work.

Love Jean

From Fred:

Heartfelt comments Kathie and Jean, thanks for sharing with everyone.

Fred

From Rick:

Hi Everyone

I think the phrase “friendly takeover” may have been inappropriate and conveyed something I didn’t intend. The original question from the agenda was:  

· Which Path to Take? – Do we want to start a new church, with a new name? – or – Do we retain the King of Kings Church and seek to assimilate new members and new ideas building on our existing effort?

I was trying to suggest a third option that a new “merged” church starts, but instead of applying for a new charity status, the new group takes over the old KOK registration and property. According to KOK’s constitution, If KOK dissolves, the assets are to be sold off and the money given to the Canadian Bible Society.

There are several approaches to how the new group takes over the old KOK entity. The KOKNTC entity can still be our legal name, but we publicly are known by a different name. My legal name is Richard, but I go by Rick. Dave’s Onebook group is legally known as GPL (Global Partner Link). The option I would recommend is that we legally change the society’s name, and do the paperwork for the property, Credit Union, utilities, etc.

As to how the “merged” church starts, that has been the discussion over the last few months. I do believe that we have much to learn from each other, and the end result will be stronger than the groups individually. “Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken” Ecc 4:12. As God blesses our blending, and adds His strength to the union, we will be like that three stranded cord ... not easily broken”.

A few thoughts on the name that others have also mentioned: I think we need to not use “community church” as that will cause confusion with BCC’s name. I do like the God focused names like King’s Table, or Christ the King. If we as a church group are meeting to glorify God, this should reflect in our name.

Len – Thanks for your input on the “New Testament” part of the present name. The first century church was not perfect, nor are they the ideal. We have much to learn from them, but we are to live Acts 29 ... the continuing story of God working in and through His people.

I am still working on an electronic version of the KOK constitution. I may just photocopy the whole thing and have it available on Sunday. It is based on the BC Society Act of 1977.

God bless,

Rick

And Again from Kathie:

thank you again Alan and Elizabeth for your hard work

thank you Jean for your letter and kind comments

I just want to again emphasize that I believe that this is what God wants us to do, to join together. I was thinking and praying about it tonight and I had a little “picture” of 2 streams coming together to form a river and I thought when this happens the river often does not have the same name as either of the 2 streams, and if this is so, why would it be any different when 2 streams of God come together to blend and worship and praise that they would do so under another name?

please forgive me for not understanding the why’s for having a new name.

please be encouraged people of God, we are loved and He is to be praised.

blessings to each of you, to all of you, heaped up, shaken together and overflowing!

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